#30 Ray Corcoran | How to face failure and fear when starting out in business

Episode Overview

Starting out in business can be scary. There are so many unknowns, and even if you’re excellent at what you do, business is a skillset that must be mastered in addition. As part of their short series on business, Ryan and Terry chat with Ray Corcoran. Ray is a business growth consultant with a colorful business story.

Having owned and operated more than one business, and making the leap from corporate to business and having to go back to start again – Ray knows what failure and fear feels like. He also knows how to deal with it. In this candid conversation they explore the trials and triumphs of being in business, and why the reward is worth the risk.

having to wait until you’re too old to enjoy your money, this episode is for you.

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Terry: Hi, it’s Terry, he, and as promised in this episode, we’re chatting with a special guest who can help us explore the idea of using business as a vehicle for wealth. Now, I first met Ray Corcoran about seven years ago and he was advising me in the early days as I took my first tentative steps into the world of business.

He’s a business growth consultant and international speaker on digital marketing strategy. And he’s worked with over a thousand businesses across a hundred different industries. Recently rice started his own YouTube channel, and he talks a lot about building the business skills that can supercharge your wealth. He also has some genuinely different views that provide a lot deeper thought when it comes to personal finances.

So that’s why we thought he’d be a good one to bring into this series on business. As a pathway to prosperity in this conversation, we delve into his journey from salaried employee to lost all entrepreneur who earned multiple times what his dad ever made whilst working half as hard.

And he’s a quick highlight reel of what’s to come, what he wishes. He knew how to do before he made the. The two skills he believes are most critical when starting out to speed up your success in business, how he dealt with the failure of his first business and how it led to his next and we also have a really good conversation about how to deal with the fear and anxiety that comes from putting yourself out there  when you go into business,

So if you’re exploring the idea of starting your own business or you’re in business, getting going,  and you want to sidestep the most predictable and preventable mistakes. You want to bounce back from adversity and challenge, and you want to push past your own limits.

There are some real nuggets in these conversation for you. These are the unfiltered thoughts of someone who spent time in the trenches and has the battle scars to prove it. So hope you enjoy.

Ray: Great. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much, man. Having a baby. It’s good.

Terry: Sorry. We’ve had a little bit of technical issues, just, trying out a couple of little tech tools beforehand, but um, where are you now?

Ray: A little bit is a bit of an understatement, but let’s sweep it under the rug for today.

Ryan: The realities of dialing in from Sydney at the moment isn’t it?

Ray: Yeah pretty much!

Terry: How are you finding the whole situation at the moment? It’s been

Ray: fine. You get this game at the competitor. A lot of people are pretty good. Like I can work from home and my clients sort of spread out. So if I was in an industry where like all my clients, businesses are closed right now, I think that would be a little challenging, but I work every day anyway.

So that’s, I don’t go to the gym or anything. Like, I’ll go around likely like, well, my lifestyle is really just. Hanging out with me. So kind of depressing, to be honest, I just liked working on my project. I was lucky to road straight having locked down because I don’t have to pretend to want a guy to stop.

I just hang out with my little fellow, hang out with my wife. And this is the one. So what I wanted

Terry: I have to admit when, um, we were dealing with lockdowns last year, there was a part of me that was the same room. Like yeah. You know, all that other bullshit. I don’t have to worry about it.

Ray: Like even coming out. I looked down my last year. We only had a short line last year. We came out of that. And I was just like, I’m just not going back to going to Lily’s events. Like, I’m just going to be quite honest with people and just be like, I just don’t want to go to make the outcome. That’s happiest. I’m working and making progress on whatever projects I’m looking wound. A client looks that then close friends. We’ll hang out with the other than that design really have just done my account for that. Yeah. Yeah,

Terry: obviously we want it to get you on the show because kind of kicking off a bit of a short series on business as a vehicle for wealth and kind of just making the point that this is a pathway that not many people talk about in this whole personal finance fiery type space.

And I’m not sure why that is because you see most people do gravitate toward business in the long run because everyone ends up there. But obviously you’re a few years ahead of us. You’re someone I really respect where he got to know each other through a product business course that I did years ago. I noticed that you were starting to do some things and things like that on YouTube.

And obviously you’ve got your YouTube channel on personal finance. So I thought it’d be a really good one to have a chat around that, because like I said, you’re a few years ahead. You’ve got some different takes as well. So I’m keen to, but I guess like first question for you would be, why do you think people don’t talk enough about business as a vehicle?

Ray: I think a lot of people gravitate towards easy or comfortable. Starting a business is hard. Increasing your income is a simple but hard and I’m pretty,  like, I’m actually a pretty frugal person. I really don’t spend the money he bought. I kind of had a phase where I was very frugal and I got that really from my parents.

And I’m still very careful with spending now, but I’ve just realized the more I increased my income, I was like, this is where. And a lot of people say, is it a point having a high income if you spend too much? And I just disagree. I just don’t think that there’s that many people that have that stupid, like show you spending will increase a little bit as your income increases.

But I think the percentage of people that increase their income. And stop spending just as much. I don’t think that’s common. I found for nails, like, all right, my income isn’t fixed. And I think a lot of people have like a salary mentality. Like I had that when I went from job to a business, my first focus was just making as much as my salary.

I almost had like a mental limit on how much I could make in my head, because there’s no limit with business that you can make 4, 5, 600 grand a year from your business. And I kind of was putting my foot off the gas with my business because I was like, cool, I’m matching what I made in my job. So that’s all good.

I dunno. I just had a mine in mine. And if you use guiro, I was like, what am I doing? I can do more than these. Like, this is not the end of my potential. And then I started working more and more than my incoming crates. And then I was like, what was I doing? Previous youths, all those, like there actually is no limit.

You know, you can make an outrageous amount of money. It’s hard work. Like it’s not easy, but I just think has so much potential. And I think a lot of people in the finance community, they kind of shrink their goals and their shrink, their ambitions. I think that’s a massive trend in the finance space, which I don’t really like or.

There are people that genuinely want to leave very late and just have a very simple life and not to have it from that at all. But I think there’s a big chunk of those people that are just aligned to themselves and have just decided, oh, I can only live on 20 K or 30 K a year and stuff. And I’m like one, I think life is too unpredictable for that to be reality for a lot of people, especially as you get older, I think there’s just natural things that happen in my friends need help family.

Health issues with parents or whatever. There’s so many unpredictable factors, the markets and all that sort of stuff. So for me, yeah. I just think like a lot of people kind of go too heavy into the free gallery space. And I think that business is such a great vehicle to an unusual amounts of money. If you do. That’s why I’ve made towards that.

Ryan: And for you Ray was it the money, like increasing the cap on what you can earn, the thing that kind of drove you towards business, or was it more to do with other things in, I guess like working for somebody else?

Ray: Yeah. It’s probably a few things I’m just going to read you that best appliance for an hour.

That’s like that. That’s why I partially wanted to make my YouTube channel. It was like not to just be different, to be different. There’s lots of things I would agree with, but yeah, I just wanted to sort of share my thoughts, but yeah, for running a business, One of the big things was like, do you want to make a little money, little table kind of hide the fact that going to make money?

Cause it’s a little evil and scary, but like the Mayo, I did want to make a lot of money. My parents didn’t make extra money though. Both extremely hard workers. And I saw them just work. There are soften that really actually going to be curious, that kind of started the whole Jenny me because I saw my parents and they worked their ass off.

And I was like, well, these people aren’t lazy. Like at all, like they were working crazy hours. Never. We changed and all this. Well, hard work is not the only piece of this puzzle. They are copy because if it was just hard work, these bots would be loaded. But when some of these, my parents, they did a few things, right?

Like work ethic and stuff. And some of the things, you know, we will do things wrong. Like I didn’t invest. So they didn’t really build up assets. They kind of just bought a house and paid it off gradually over time. I think I’m wearing shirts, pedals, musky. It’d be like very, very close to bang, but I didn’t, I tied it off and had sex and money out or whatever, but they didn’t really invest.

And I think they worked in role. They work in a job for a long time. There’s only so much money you can make in certain roles and industries. My mum was a nurse. My dad was a mechanical engineer. So even if you’re act sanding some of those things, you make wall, but probably believable. My thing is I wanted to make a lot money.

I wanted to have a lot more freedom. Generally. It was relatively disruptive at school. I just like having fun and just saying, and doing whatever I wanted and, uh, kinda just got to the point Roz, I go up glove style for a number of promotions that probably didn’t deserve the promotion, but I kind of felt like I was doing all the right things that I needed to do.

And then I would use data and numbers to quantify how much more I was doing than other potential candidates for that role, who I knew well. So going to the role and then. The job and I’m like, That guy is crap, but he got the job. I was naive. Then I didn’t understand the relationships that guy had built the friends in higher places.

Essentially. I didn’t really understand that game was happening around me, but I just got really jaded after a few moments like that. And I was like, maybe this is not based on who’s the best person for the role. It’s based on a whole bunch of other things. And I just started feeling. Well in my career, I was eventually gonna make good money.

I probably would have been into my forties by the time that was happening. I was just looking at other people on the office floor. And I was like, that guy is overweight, looks miserable at work every day. Basically everything sucks about his life, except he makes Woodman, but he’s changed his job. And I was like, I thought I wanted that.

And I’m like, there’s one Glock, I’d say, should I always leave? But he fell asleep.  almost 300 grand a year. And I was just like, what am I doing? I just need to get it. Yeah. The lack of control was a big one for me. I locked the beads my way, and I’m happy to be proven wrong, but like knowing why. And what’s the reason.

So combination making money control is a big one. I’d rather have more, unpredictability and stress potentially running my own thing, but at least I knew if I failed that was my fault. Not some other external factor.

Terry: Mike, you said something there that I wouldn’t mind just drilling into it very quickly. You kind of, might’ve mentioned it this moment where you realized there’s a whole other game going.

There’s all these other factors you talked about. I feel like there’s one of two ways you could go there. You could say to yourself, I’m going to Masa that game. I’m going to figure out what a role the fact is that that might be when that game, or I don’t even want to play the game. What is it that you think drove you towards going?

I want to play that game. I want to create my own guy and it’s going to be cold. My business. I guess my real question here is, do you feel like there’s two different types of people, someone that says I want to master that game and then someone that says go and do the right.

Ray: A hundred percent. There’s nothing wrong with a job. Like I’m not anti job black. Many people are. I think a job is a great way to make money for me. You go to at your own personality, like this is probably a little bit by the simplistic, but I categorize people when it comes to these topics, the ones and twos, ones of April that are happy to see the ship and choose the people that support the, our blocks and a really, really good at that.

And naturally should do that. And I see lots of people in business that probably shouldn’t be in business. They might’ve flocked the idea of doing. This is so many different factors, always changing all the time. So if you’re someone that is,  navigating that that’s not a big deal and that’s good. She’ll someone that’s just really technically excellent.

And you don’t want the responsibility of like where this whole duration’s going. You’d be perfect. Then a company and you can get paid a lot of money in a job, especially when you’re super valuable. It’s all one during the company, you can get, pay a little money. And I think it’s just being honest, like about those 90 relevant one old author.

I think it’s just identifying the ways like anything. My why and my, I just, all the things and I don’t mind picky what happens is, and I don’t mind being responsible for staff and if it goes wrong, I don’t have a problem with that. Whereas other people it’s just like what did happens throughout your whole life.

If you have someone that’s always followed another person or done that, then you’re actually going to be fit for that. So,

Ryan: Yeah, the way I think about slack, it’s almost the ultimate exposure therapy is like, if you like having a mirror up to all of your insecurities and it is the place for you, but if you really steer away from having that reflection and you kind of don’t want to have that slapping the phrase.

Give yourself pretty much

Ray: daily. I’ve heard someone say is the best personal development course you could do. And I’m like, I totally agree with that. Like the amount of skills that I’ve had to learn or weaknesses that I’ve had to overcome or delegate, like it really exposes how crappy you are at every seat bag.

Like it’s going to be like, cause like I was overconfident probably when I left my job initially I thought, yeah, like I’ve got half a brain. I could figure this. And, uh, it turns out I could not figure it out. So it was just one of those things where I kind of realized that I was not really equipped yet to run a business.

Like I was in corporate and I left to start a web design business. And I had a heap of work when I left, but then I didn’t realize that I needed to build a pipeline to support. Once I finished that work, what was next? Hey, I made the classic mistake of being like, oh crap, I’ve got to finish all this stuff.

Finished it all didn’t have anything else to do after. And I was like, ah, okay, how do I get customers? Oh yeah, we should have a little bit about this before I left my job with my safe Harbor. Is that what

Terry: drove you into marketing? Like that’s the problem that you had to solve, which was like, oh, hang on. I had this delivered from these guys and then I’ve got to create more demand.

So that’s what made you solve that next

Ray: problem? Yeah, totally. So my first business was wherever the sign is. It was a self-taught and building basic. They weren’t very good, but just basic sort of WordPress websites. But I was like, this is my meal ticket out of here. If I can do a few websites, chopped, a couple of grand edge timeline, that’d be cool.

And I’ll be a free man. But then I finished the websites of people and they go, how do we get able to do this site? And I was like, got a knife, but if you want, I can set up, I was interested to learn about it myself. So I was like, well, how about, I’ll just try and learn about some stuff, Lin abouts and bicy, big things.

And, um, although for freight for you. And then if you lock it and give you testimonials and reviews, and then eventually by, um, roommate psyche talks about the tuner. But you kind of chewing up your rights. I Julia, at the time, that was pretty much what I did. I just started off by doing it for free to practice.

Then I charged him like nothing was not even worth it. The amount, maybe a couple hundred bucks and maybe a month full, whatever it was or. And then I didn’t really care about the money. It was more just like just gradually getting up a bit. And then I, after a while as more experience happened, then I was like, okay, cool.

Now I know that I can go into certain type of business. And within a certain period of time, I’ll be able to get them a good uplift to the point where I charge X amount of dollars. And that would still be great value for them because they would get a multiple of that back. Basically, part of

Terry: that, though, you mentioned that you went out and then you realized you didn’t have the skills you went back.

Ray: Uh, yeah, it’s like the most embarrassing. I’d like, you are an effort loser, dude, you thought you were going to smash it. You do know it. Right. And then it didn’t die in the ass, but it kind of just tape it off. I was just like on a quick, I was in a situation where I needed to have certain tools and I did not have those skills and tool them.

So it was the worst. That moment of lot McGee back on to safe. He’s like most depressing shit like you alone going on. You’re like, oh, uncle Fred. I liked how fair it was. That’s something I like that business. It’s fair. It doesn’t work. And if you’re great, it doesn’t matter what background or ethnicity or whatever.

Like you can make stuff happened. That

Terry: point there, I think is critical. Like that’s what I struggle with in a job for me was my inputs and outputs were very loosely coupled. They weren’t coupled at all when a lot of them. For me working in sport, I could be doing the best job ever. And I could have put my heart and soul into this one program for the last three years.

And that doesn’t mean that we’re going to win, whereas in business, you know, straight away, like you’re like, it’s so tightly coupled that’s working that is not working. And like, what I’m interested in is there are a lot of people that would say that the scenario that you just described, where you went out and when you sort of went, actually I don’t have this sorted and I have to go back now and create an income.

Well, a lot of people would see that as a failure. Like, how did you view it? Because obviously you didn’t stop. You’ve come back. You’ve now your business and it is what it is today. So what do you think makes that thinking different for you?

Ray: At some point you got to have the attitude of like, it’s going to F and work, no matter what, like you, like, I’m gonna make this work and it might not be final product might be a little bit different to whatever you initially planned.

Like, you kind of flexible about how we get there, but the destination, or I want to. And above average amount of money. I want to have freedom about what I do during my day, to an extent, obviously you’ve got responsibilities, clients and stuff, and, but if I really want to. Lunch with my dad. I had 12:00 PM on a Monday.

I can. And like, just to be able to do that, I had to dress up like a Turkey in a suit or whatever, and do all that jumped through all these poops. Like I used to have a lot of bead, but like I used to grow my stumble a little bit Longbow and life thought my work was quite good, but he would every day, plus my ass about life.

He goes winning shadow. I was just . I can get payment, do a job. Um, I think I’m doing like a pretty good job of it, and it’s just so obsessed with it. And I was like, what a waste of time conversation and when your shave and your crap, a shit shops. Oh, no, it was just a stupid plights. And honestly, it’s like, it’s still saying efficient.

I’m like, Ugh, it’s politics. And that was a big thing I didn’t want to do. And I was just like, this is always like, I guess all it takes and people dynamics to do it, but I don’t like the idea of white, single energy on stuff that really doesn’t matter. Like I’d rather be on, I love solving problems for clients and even my business.

So I just want to spend money. Sort of doing that. So, but I have to go back to the job. I have to go to Annette to just try and find it like anything. And I had to sell, I’d found a cold calling job where we had to do like a few hundred calls a day, selling solar panels. And I was like the worst job, wherever the alleged.

This was worse. I’m like, it was just ridiculous. I mean, when I was there, I was like, this is the biggest motivator ever. I’m like, this is what you’re coming back to. If you don’t sort this out, say like, what’s kind of good. It was like depressing. Like every day I was like, this is what it’s come to Raymond.

You already idiot. You’re an idiot. One, two, you deserve this 100% and three, at least now, you know, what’s on the other side of the, now the grass is not greener on this side at all. You better make it work.

Ryan: It sounds like you’ve almost gone out and tried to find the closest thing they could appear demise a rat race, what you want, why you don’t want

Ray: to come back.

It’s good to, anything’s an improvement I need. My mom especially was like, you should be able to be grateful to him. And clearly, you know, it’s just trying a different generation, but so now, like anything, like now, even if I have days where I’m like over it, it’s still nothing compared to like what I could be.

There’s always a million, worst jobs you could be doing for way less money than you’d done. Enjoy Saudia, even

Ryan: going back. Now, you mentioned before, like, You get to this place where you feel like you’ve got this really good technical understanding, like you can deliver on something. And this is where most people get to and they step out and they go, right.

That’s going to translate into being able to build a successful business. And then you realize, okay, there’s business expertise that needs to kind of wrap around that technical expertise to actually create value and build something that can get you what you want. What do you think? Some of the major skills.

You felt like you missed for a start, like you wish you had back then when went out on your own for, uh, like to have really compliment what you were

Ray: doing as a yeah, definitely. I think, um,  brings the first one is just being able to attract a customer, communicate your value to them, them, to my decision, to work with.

I think that’s crucial. That starts everything to get a technically brilliant. You should get word of mouth referrals that will naturally happen. But if you could be some on the Canon marketing is attracting attention and sales is converting attention into money. So if you can get that happening and they satellite, you’ve got a straight of the people coming in, whether they stay with you or not is a whole nother ball game.

But later now you’ve got people that you can, what ways you can impress them, potential future testimonials and referrals off the back of that. If you do a good job. So that’s the start of the process. And then eventually you have to learn stuff. Managing people at hiring and stuff like that. I think sales and marketing would be one of the most important ones, because if you can attract a customer on our repeatable basis, then unless you, that money thing saw when you’ve got money coming in, you’ve got options now, and you can do stocks.

You can potentially pay someone to do bits and pieces for John A. Buck. Well, a little pieces you need Don. You can pay us that help that you need and all that. Yeah, I think very big, very financially, like this is important. And also pricing like pricing accordingly. A lot of people have bad. Like I was bad at pricing and you need to allow for able to die pipe, which is, for me, it has not really been a big problem, but it can’t send industries.

It can be a big problem. So I just price you accordingly, I think is an important one. And just understanding basic profitability of your products and services, which customers are worthwhile. Lots of small customers that most of them are pretty lovely people, but there was some that would just like the twine drain was, was huge.

I know, pine below the thing I wanted, like Ferrari service or Toyota sort of prices. So it was very hard to build a business with like 10 20 of those people as clients. Like I was going crazy and it’s kind of funny because I’m like, I had some months where I like I’ll make eight or 10,000 bucks in a month.

And I’m like, man, that was people. I told her about making a hundred grand in a month, but I’m like, if I 10 X. Like that’s crap. I gotta jump off ability. Like, it’s just like, I couldn’t even kind of interesting as you guys, like zero to 10 K mocking, like super hot lawyer, then you can go from like 50 to 70 K or whatever it is.

And it feels like a break. So it’s kind of interesting how. Difficulty different phases convey. And then it gets to a point where it’s feels people FLS, right? You mentioned

Terry: at the start there that, um, sales and marketing is one of the most important skills. And I think for us, definitely that is the key lack of being able to prove your value.

And either way I used to be is we’re investing in our prospects until they’re ready to invest back with us. And sorry, the way to grow is to invest more in your prospects. But, um, one thing I’ve noticed, and I’ll be curious to hear your thoughts on this when I’m talking to people that are still.

Employees are in that employee mindset. One of the first things they say as a resistance is, but I’m not good at sales. I don’t want to do any sales. And it’s kind of like sales is this dirty word. I’m curious to see what you think. I feel like that’s what stops people from going out and serving other people in a business in a way that they want in a way that they can do better.

Ray: Yeah, a hundred percent, I think when it comes to the sales, like, just because you have a bad experience with a sleazy car salesman doesn’t mean that that’s what you’re doing when you’re selling. Like, if you have a perception of sales and that Spain probably quite well. Like styles should be a pleasant price.

Same with marketing. I believe sales that marketing should be pleasant and beneficial process when it’s executed properly. Sales is about speaking to the cost of not any by name and then pairing them ethically with the raw product that matches what they need or letting them know that there’s nothing that fits based on what you offer.

Say, Mick, Mockney you saying? Like educating a prospects and that sort of stuff. Like that’s exactly how I view it as well. Like I would have helped them when it comes to the marketing agencies. I want to add value to them at  and teach them how to navigate this world, because this is why area and that kind of helps them.

And they’re better off for it. And a night naturally, it will be like, well, fuck, Heidi’s gone. He can help you just do it all full meal kit, you know, and I’ve gotten value out of. The second blog would be, you got to do what you got to do to grow that business. So within ethical boundaries, of course, but you’ve got to do what you gotta do.

So like, if you don’t want to sell, I like is if your product is good and useful, like why aren’t you comfortable talking about a product to someone that you could really improve their life? If your product sucks or it’s a scam or something that’s not good. But if you’re selling something that genuinely proves a lot, she doesn’t know how to have that conversation.

And you want to learn how to actually do the sales compensation. That’s fine. Everyone has to learn how to do that properly. But if you’re selling. Doesn’t want to do certain parts. Like when you start, you have to do. So let’s do bad. If you don’t wanna do it, then just stay in your job. And if job is making you miserable, then you have to come to a crossroads about making a decision.

Do you, which one do you hate the most? Do you hate jumping on sales calls even, uh, that like give you freedom or are you happy to stay and die slowly in a job if you don’t like it? If you like a job it’s different. But like, that was for me, I was looking at this, like, I’m like a corpse, like slightly, just like Roddy LA in his office is this is an adventure.

Countries and cities and stuff that I’ve been to people I’ve met like amazing interest in people that are super successful. It just any level. And I’ve just had so many cool conversations and experiences as a result of going on this business journey. I just feel like I wouldn’t have had a lot of those.

If I’d stayed in my job, I would have had some, what’s the

Terry: coolest thing you’ve done. Like what’s the thank us to like a peak moment.

Ray: There’s so many, you know, some of the, I like to the conferences and all the adrenaline rush of speaking at a conference, like a big conference where there’s like thousands instead of plus fatal in a room and they’re all staring at you.

And I’m like, it’s fun. Like I liked the preparation and I liked on the di managing my nerves as well. Just the whole process of that. Yeah. I like the leverage as well of speaking, but I’m, it’s just fun. It’s fun. I’ve met so many amazing people at conferences who I’ve been other speakers, SOC met interesting, or really, really slot table of solid people in the industry from speaking as well as make really lovely attend days as well.

Lucky night off. They come have a chat afterwards and send me interesting stories. So that’s being booed, pack lines, fly me out to different countries that people would fly me out to New Zealand and stuff. And sometimes they’ll let me bring my wife as well and they’ll pay for that. So they’re probably buttery BR and that’s exactly how you go about it, but yeah, just likes to have fun experiences then also like some of the client meetings, like some of it’s pretty cool.

Like we’ve got clients that when we, they trust started with just like, they had one location, for example, and doing like, had a target to make 10 K week. And now they lock a $10 million plus company with a whole bunch of locations all over town. And that all started with them clicking on my Facebook ads and just having a chat stylish from these little thing.

And now it’s like, they’ve got each business, huge reputation, that sort of stuff. I love Mikey, my client’s money. Like I’m addicted church. I need to get a bit of a high from it, like this, knowing that like whatever you’d crafted, helped facilitate. And I work hard as well as part like just creating stuff and then saying it work is definitely.

Terry: This is a bit of a selfish question, and it’s a little bit almost counseling for us here, but you kind of just mentioned advertising there and we’re kind of moving into this kind of space at the moment. And this is again, I’m just trying to put myself in my own shoes and the shoes of people that I think in guest bot and the other one is like, yes, but I don’t want to put myself out there.

I know for me. The way I think about it, because I’m the same as you. If I’m left to my own devices, I’m going to sit in a room and read a book and I’ll read it all die and I’ll get out the next day and I’ll read another book. Yeah. But when it comes to putting yourself out there, the why I kind of think about it is it’s not about you.

It’s about the person you’re trying to sell. And so you kind of have to get out of your own way. And it’s interesting to me that there’s a different levels, right? I’m really comfortable now with podcasting. I’ve been doing this now for a couple of years, but now we’re moving into video and I’m seeing these insecurities pop up and now we’re moving into advertising.

And I think what’s interesting to me is that I can see my comfort zone expanding as we go. So I know even though right now, I don’t feel comfortable. On VRS feel self-conscious or around people are going to have a go at me and what’s going to happen. All that sort of stuff. And yeah. So I would love to know what your thoughts are there.

Like if you were counseling me and then somebody who’s having that thought, like, yes, I, this sounds awesome, but I don’t want to be putting it self out there. Like what would you say

Ray: or want a juicy topic? I could talk about this for several hours. This is actually a tip that I got given when I started speaking.

Like I should start doing like proper speaking, where I’m being paid to speak at conferences and stuff. The metonymy law notice happened when you speak about you and how you are looking and how you’ll sounding and all that, when you’ll focus on the audience and what they need to get from this session and try and serving, I found it to be true.

Like I kind of like hype it up in my head to be like, I kind of exaggerate it in my head and I’m like, these people need my help right now. And like, I’m literally, I’ve almost got like a little mini mission tonight to be like, these people are all struggling and if I don’t. Absolute bangers and super unusual stuff today.

Like they in a cave struggling hard. So like I have a chance today to really, really help get them on the right track and help them a lot. I can help them old. Same. So I shouldn’t be thinking about how my shirt is my shirt I end, or how did that last thing I said sound like it probably didn’t sound great.

Could have said that more sickly, all these different things, whenever you’re focusing on you, you know, it’s like a C on them. So I found that really useful for speaking, because once you’re out there, you’re up there. So it’s like cut, edit, or retake. You just got to do it. So, which is super fun. It’s a big.

So judgment of other people and self, this is a big one. Like I said, like I’ve done marketing stuff for ages, so may speak to the marketing stuff. Like I can do it like blindfolded and do pretty much everything. One take and do it easy. When I started my YouTube channel. Like, otherwise I’ll this topic first I’ll finance and making money and building well, all that.

Like it’s expanded something. I really love it. And I started my YouTube channel started this year, 2021. I definitely had some thoughts around like, like I’d been toying with the idea to probably two-plus eats more than probably more than 20. And I’m like, Aw, I’m see people online and I’ll be like, I could do that.

Like, not that I’m the bait, like this HQ with zillions of dollars that probably no more, but I was like that, but some of the people posting were like had big followings and I didn’t think they were particularly funny or entertaining or the video is, could have been edited better. And I was just like, can’t match that level yet.

But like, I could bake that, like, you know, when you’d see an absolute star at work, you’re like, that would take years to get that in. And I was looking at these YouTube people and I was like, I could do that. Like, it would take me a while to figure out lighting and editing and whatever, and it’ll take time to get there.

But I was like, I could definitely do this. We can help focus. You get the inevitable one thumbs down on a video. And you’re like, whoa, like it keeps your eye on that guy. You’re like, oh, and it’s sitting up. And you get people that may not ask comments and a little bit sort of stop to the point in life, even very early in the YouTube stuff.

And early on with my marketing stuff, I’m just had to disconnect the entirely. And I haven’t actually read that book. The satellite, they’re not giving you back, but I assume the book is about not caring so much. Apple people, Phoenix only did read them. I feel like I’ve kind of gotten general just from the title, but the way that I thought about it now, I kind of just completely disagree.

The feedback from the inputs. So the way I approach my videos now is I film it and I literally care about the right people’s feedback, but I don’t care what people say about it. I don’t care if there’s like some Derrick again, it’s like, oh, well actually it would be like way better, but he’s signing it in like a spot offs way and basically sign, but you’ll wrongly as stupid or whatever.

Well, I know he’s, I have a set number of deliverables in terms of videos per week or per month. And my favorite quote related to this is, um, dog spot, but the caravan. So there’s going to be noise and the negative or whatever. And like, so many people aren’t even aliens. They’re just being like jerks or whatever.

It’s just like, that is totally separate to me doing what I need to do. And if everybody didn’t, they stopped what they were doing because she, he had sang that song. Like nobody would get anything done because we’re listening to it, critic on the sideline or whatever that quote is. So these days literally does not.

The only time I would be consented is if the people that are genuinely on target and trying to help these people, they’re like, that was crap. Well, that was wrong. And they had some logical reason why on lock. I that’s good to know, but if I know, like deep down that I’m doing like things in their best interest and I’m trying to help them, then I literally, I didn’t give a shit.

What any of them say that. You’ve got two critics, right? You’ve got

Ryan: one that’s Derrick, and then you’ve got the critic, which is yourself. And like often that’s the one that stops you from actually taking that leap at the start. And I was quite similar to, it was probably an overconfidence where you’re like, no, I can do that.

And I can do that better and figure out all the other stuff. And it took a lot longer than what I expected. No doubt, but

Ray: there’s still critic that sits

Ryan: on the shoulder and go, yeah. Are you actually taking the right path? Like, is this the path that’s gonna take you to where you want to go? And obviously it takes 2, 3, 4, 5 years to really validate whether or not that was the right path or not.

How did you find that you work through that critic?

Ray: I put that critical side to side. All right. We’re just not gonna listen to you anymore because you’re not very productive for me happen to what we speaking, like in a live environment, because like I found it early speaking geeks, I would have, this is common for a lot of speakers.

You’ll have what you’re talking about. And then what you think about that you’re talking about. So you kind of be like, I’m talking about this and then about the thought in the back of my mind being like, oh, that sounded stupid. You should have said, like that was too wordy or that was too the. Dude, you explain that.

So convoluted and ridiculous. And now I’m looking at people in the crowd and I’m like, is that guy just like judging me right now? And this whole second tracks going on in the background, but I’m still talking with like, what’s happening, like live as well. So that’s kind of like a live version of that playing out, but even recently equity out and I’m like, ah, I could have done back that up.

That should have been tighter. And that should have been tied up. But this is something I’ve made a lot of progress on in the last and. It’s almost like unlucky your brain, your thoughts get in the way of you doing all this cool stuff. And now it’s like, what if I just don’t think like, what if I just that part of the brain I’m like, I just don’t care what you have to say.

Like, what happens if it goes wrong? What happens if someone says negative feedback, they say that was wrong, or you could do a white or this way or whatever. Now I’m just like, you’re just some random pixels on the internet it’s person. Like I don’t get, or you’re not even my friend. I have no idea anything of value.

You’re just faceless. People say, like, I just don’t care. I care about lb, like helping the bagel and then giving me good feedback. But I also don’t care. As long as my like, metrics and one of my measures of success, like if I’m getting people saying good things and one person saying negative thing, thou my, yeah, this is good.

I

Terry: might be a bit sadistic, but we’ve got one star review on our podcast. And as soon as that happened, I rang Ryan. I said, mate, this is an awesome day. So it means one of two things. This means one of our competitors is super insecure and has come on to do this. This just means this is some brokers having a go and my sort of thinking around it.

And we got the same thing too. We ran some ads recently. We’ve got this one comment, which was like particularly lucky was pretty, pretty pointed and stain it, but there was some curly knit. And what I’ve found is that my comfort zone expands. Almost indirect correlation to how many times I’ve dealt with that.

So it’s like, you’re teaching your brain. Someone can say something like that. And guess what? Tomorrow the sun comes up. Guess what? Your partner still loves. You guess what? Your kids are still your kid, what your family is still your family nothing’s going to happen. And so I’m weird in this way, but like, we got that comment and I’m like, yes, that kind of unlocks me for the next level for video.

Ray: You need to like each like yourself because of the whole online world. And it’s just crazy. And people just say whatever, I don’t know. It is real feedback and then you’ll love it. Even if I’ve wrapped it in a jerk kind of way. I’ll just be like, cool. Yeah. That makes sense. I’ll agree with them the first time as well.

Like it’s like, um, how do we be friends and influence people that if they were a jerk, but they said something productive, I’ll be like, yeah, that’s a good point. Negative feedback. It’s going to happen in any job or whatever. You’re putting yourself out there and really trying to grow something pretty prominent.

And in people’s faces, it just comes with the territory. So I’d be more concerned if nobody was coming to you, I’d rather have 50% negative and 50% positive, but everybody’s checking it out. I can give you something. The way

Terry: I’m thinking about it, cause this is this something we’re going through and we’ll continue to go through it.

As we continue to put ourselves out there, it might be a book, the courage to be disliked. Actually it might just great point. And it was like, we get brought up in this kind of carrot and stick kind of world where it’s like, you do the thing. We like, we’re going to praise you for it. You don’t do the thing we lock.

We’re going to punish you for it. And so what a conditions just to do is to put our wellbeing in the hands of other people’s needs. So when you get these comments and things like that, I think you’ve got to differentiate between approval and validation for us. Validation is when somebody says you did help me, you helped me and you’ve done a great job approval is you’re awesome.

You’re the best, that’s different. I kind of focus on the validation and the approval. So I don’t give a shit with like there’s people that probably hate the way I talk. There’s an audience for everyone. That’s how I’m thinking about it. Don’t seek approval, seek validation for your efforts. And that’s what you should be paying attention to approval.

As you putting your wellbeing in the hands of other people. Hi, if you’ve been loving our content and want to continue the conversation, then you need to check out our new private podcast community. Think of it like lockout digital Treehouse. This is a place where we can mate, hang out and talk shop it’s completely free, but the only way you get into the space is by being.

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Yeah. So by joining our community, you won’t just be accessing everything I described above. You’ll actually be casting, a crucial vote on who you want your future self to be what they’ll do, and then what you’ll have. So if you’ll came to connect with us, make lock, monitored, legends, and foster track. Your progress.

All you need to do is click the link below in the show notes to join our community. All right, we’ve done a good job of sort of delving into almost the price, the price of this pathway, the prices you’re going to have to take some risks. You’re going to have to deal with some uncertainty. You’re going to have to do some things.

You probably don’t feel comfortable doing like sales and marketing, and you will have to put yourself out there. People are going to have a go at you, all of these kinds of things. Let’s talk a bit more about the awards. We kind of touched on a few of them before, like, yes, you can go and see your dad for lunch, but you know, what’s on the other side of this.

Why is this

Ray: worth it? To me, definitely the early mounted Vita was money. I just approached black. I want to experience everything on full volume. I feel like my work and the business enables Meda experience wherever I want to. I wanted to experience moons traveling or, uh, opportunities for my kids or whatever it is.

Like that’s all bankrolled by what I do in my business and what I do with my clients. So I know that if I take care of the first. The second pie will take care of itself because I’ve got the funds and the control and Irish sheep that I can do whatever I want. And realistically, like I’ll work like every day.

So like right now there’s not as much freedom, but I’m working now, knowing that I think you only need like one or two really, really good years financially to be set. And I think it’s probably about seven years old. The guy from CRI to in a pretty good financial situation, maybe Tandy, if you’re doing a bit of lost all on the wipe and like with my plan.

Yeah. And in between now. And like I’m sitting three now and by the time I’m 40, like I want to be locked. Fleet work, optional AKI workings. I like working. I like working on projects and solves problems and stuff, but I’ll only be at the point where I’m just like house is fully paid. I got a nice house, fully paid off, whatever cost, the one I’ve got plenty of like really strong cashflow every single month and I can do, and I’ve got titled Todd freedom to hang out with the kids or whatever.

That’s sort of the plan and maybe being in a job, stuck bidding in an office, or I’m stuck somewhere geographically the whole day, every day. You might get some work from home stuff these days, which is good, but I just don’t like the idea that I’m like, I have to be there and I can’t really change it.

It’s kind of, it’d be weird for me to change that my income is too determined on other people. I didn’t like that. And I can’t pick and choose. With my business, if I don’t like a client or we just don’t gel, that’s fine. It happens. I don’t want to have to proceed with that relationship and all my clients now, I really love my fights.

Like they’re all legendary people. And then we have to do real work. Like it’s all fun and games, but like I love working with them. And I energized looking at them that I drained me being like, I get to work on help. Nice people basically. So

Terry: I think what you said is really interesting. This is where business is very different.

Like you can work very hard. And even like, if we look at year, you can say, you’re gonna have some months where you sort of ticking along. Then you have a couple of months where it’s like, boom, you have massive months. And then you have a couple months that are a bit lower. And if you zoom out, you’re saying the same thing with regards to the years of your life.

So you might be learning. And getting by for 2, 3, 4 years. And then you start really starting to get ahead after that. But now you’re in coms uncapped. And because you can use leverage in business and because there’s no limit on how many people you can serve, the way you want to serve, it’s just your own creativity and your own ingenuity.

You can achieve that within that two or three years, but along the way, Had to make some of those. Trade-offs like, yes, I’m going to trade eight hours every day, Monday to Friday and travel two to three hours to work, to do it. You’ve actually been able to make those smaller calls. Like, yes, I’m going to pick up my kids from childcare at 3:00 PM.

Bye. Yes, I’m going to go see the kids’ soccer game lunchtime or whatever it is you haven’t had to make those trade-offs along the way. So it’s not easy.

Ray: You have to go through the trough. I call it the trough of shittiness. So you’ve got like a few years. You probably Mikey, less money, more stress, more uncertainly.

And this is not, it depends on what business you’re going to have the trough where at black of left, EA they’re not making as much money or whatever, but then if you can get to the other side, I’m really convinced that most of business success is just sticking with it. And obviously not sticking with something that’s blatantly not good or.

But if you notice, there’s like, we’ve got something key to lock, you’ve got potential. Customers are happy, they’re paying us money. That’s something that you can work with. And so much of it is just sticking with it. And I think like if I made a decision to dolls, like I’m sticking with this, no matter what, and I’m going to make, you know, marketing that I was like, I’m just gonna stick with this and really try and master it.

It’s an ongoing process. But I was like, I’m going to go all in on this. And because I noticed any sick, that’s all people that I had met or whatever I weren’t dabblers, you know, I know people that stuck with something for a while, all they’ll whole 7, 8, 9, 10 years, plus in their journey in the same seat, doing the same boring business, like in mine.

Sexy or a I’ll make the news of when I bought that span so long, late, but to a, such a high level of technical skill that built a team that was so brilliant after lending management and also just training people and one of us and ended up building the system over tired and didn’t stop quick. But as he starts to build it, they’d get any of the income can really blow up and you’re not working crazy.

You working more normal hours and as a team, it’s not just about you anymore. And, and that sort of thing.

Terry: There’s a lot of meaning in it. So like, what I find interesting is, you know, that whole, like, do your passion, like pursue your passion thing. I’m sure for you, you didn’t go. I am passionate about marketing.

It’s just like in my blood type thing, you were like, this is a problem that needs to be solved. And then guess what? When I solve it for people, it makes me feel. And so I want more of that feeling. And as I get better at it, and people start to come to me for it. Now I’m starting to derive a real sense of purpose from this work that he’s completely absent.

If you’re just following your

Ray: passion, confidence, competence loop as well, like the better you are at something, the more that you enjoy it and the answer it feels. So I think you could be multi passionate if that’s. I’ll already be an architect. My original goal is to be an architect and the career news, the advisor, who would, they all, like, the person was ridiculous, an idiot, but they said, oh, some of them make a lot of money, but most architects and that of money.

And when that was true and I was like, well, I need to make money. Like I want to be reached, sorry, that’s off the cards I was really interested in, but I was like, no conduit. I was like, I’ll bang pool. Sorry. I can just  that’s an unacceptable answer. So that was like, And I started to look at like, what would it be valuable?

I read some book and it said like, you need to develop commercially valuable skills, said, like get close to the revenue or get close to the money. So you can be on the, can help produce money for somebody in some way, whether it’s helping you, the sales or marketing is an obvious one, but if you can help them make more money, there’s probably going to be a percentage that you could get or a fade that you could charge.

It’s very directly related. It’s. And that was a big factor that made the marketing. Like I liked the numbers and the creative side of marketing. Cause it’s a sweet blend of those two. But also, I knew that if I’d have to get this out, if I could help the company go from 500 grand to a middle of a one mil to 10 mil over a period of time, that would pay me a lot of money and they would still be super happy.

They could hide any of very high state

Terry: positive sound. I do good when you do good, not just, I’m doing good at your job.

Ray: Yeah, it’s a big one. And it’s what will help you grow a business? A lot of people try to like hustle money or hustle people to get clients or whatever. But one thing that probably took me about six or 12 months to figure out initially was if I just do a really good job, it’s naturally will grow even without any proactive marketing.

So I think for anybody looking at the guy from the job or business, like your skill set, like what skills do you have and what like developing sales model? It would be a big one. I mean, who cares if you’re not enough? And people say, oh, I’m not this person. I’m not a BS. I’m look technical. I don’t care a good case.

The business doesn’t care to build a business. Customers don’t care. You’re not good at it. So like so much of business, it’s just figure it out. Figure it out. No good numbers. That’s all right. Like not everyone’s good at numbers. Sorry. Do you need to pay someone to help you or ask someone to help you you’re straight business businesses back problem solving and lateral thinking a little bit.

You don’t have to solve everything yourself, but you’ll the INO. So you need to figure it out. So take ownership of like, oh, but I’m not this, it’s not a job. It’s not school anymore. So it’s not going to be okay if you don’t know that like your business is going to be worse off if you don’t figure it out.

So, but the good thing about business is you can get other people to. Genius and courage essentially. That’s right.

Ryan: I think that’s such a valuable point. I know we did a whole episode on misdemeanor cherry. I think it was episode 21, which was purely focused on that idea of when you’re trying to solve something, Oscar who can help you rather than trying to figure out how do I do it?

I think that’s what I love about businesses. You mentioned earlier, choosing who you want to be around. Kind of get to set your own environment and choose yarn proximity circle of the people that are influencing you on a day to

Ray: day level. And

Ryan: then you also get to choose who gets to help you build and serve the people that you want to serve as well.

So it’s like, yes, there’s choice of time, but there’s all these other variables that have such an impact on what your day to day

Ray: level of living looks

Ryan: like as well. Like the things that actually make

Ray: you happy with that. I think the more I get older, the more I realize how much. Well, it’s sort of malleable and you can really create whenever you can seatbelt and have you’re brave enough to go do for me.

I find it very like motivated and exciting. It’s a easy, easy, take a lot of hard work, a lot of iteration stuff to get it to a point where it’s working. But I used to think two smaller. My business, Mike Alma is a Phillips gets locked, actually knows the revenue or whatever. I think to me, my goal is to have a really high profit business where the customer’s really happy.

They get great results and I get time freedom and the kind of cashflow I want to leave a very luxurious, I don’t want to just have enough. Like I want to have more. Do every single thing, Paul bye. And the good thing

Terry: is you can kind of reverse engineer that, right? So if you’re really clear on what that is, you know, in terms of your numbers, you can say, well, how many people do I need to serve?

And at what level do I need to serve them? And what do I need to know and what skills I need to do? What has to be true in order for me to be able to do that. So then you know what that future businesses to look like, and you build towards that, that’s the creativity. So that’s the stuff that I get really interested in is I’m like in three years, we need to look like this.

So if we don’t look like that, and then we’re not achieving this, and they’re like, that’s what you say, you know, that is super malleable and it needs to be.

Ray: I is that people will be like, how do you work from home? I don’t know how I’d be able to be organized them. Like, well, if you don’t make any money, if you don’t do anything, it’s pretty easy to be kind of faded.

Like I’ve never had a problem with being motivated to work. Like if I don’t get a flat ass, like I literally go broke. So it’s like, yeah. Last

Terry: question for you. If you were giving yourself advice and yourself in your. And you’re kind of thinking, oh, there is. Well, and I’m looking for more, I want something different.

You talking to you with a benefit of hindsight right now, what would you say to yourself if you’re in that position saying I know that in the next year, two years, I’ve got to be out of this. I’m going to be doing math. Yeah. Good

Ray: question. So one thing, all of the sides try and work in the business. Single, trying to move too.

So for men. I didn’t start a marketing agency straight away. I was web design and then marketing. But if I knew that that was where I wanted to go, or at least I wanted to start off initially, I would have spent time working in the marketing agency for a year or two years ahead, have the law unaided and he will say, make mistakes in somebody else’s business.

I totally agree. Like I think if I had my time. I don’t have any regrets, but I would definitely do that. That would have short my learning curve heaps, because I could have seen inside out to be doing whatever job that I could spend heaps of time learning the ins and outs of how I guess the end state looks.

I didn’t see exactly how one I’m trying to get to. This is what it looks from the inside. This is how that piece connects that piece and all that. And I could learn all that. So I did not huge on, so if there’s little clickable for everybody, but. Confined, even a sort of similar business, it will give you real world experience and you can just speak to anybody if they work with you.

So you’re like, Hey, how does that work? What about that? I could live coffee, whatever industry people, you can build relationships that you could leverage. Once you leave your job, you could do that. Second thing. I just feel like I probably would have left my job. But I got like the wish of revenue and I’m like, I’m out of here.

And then yeah, it was bad and I’ve had to go back and I was like, okay, well that was a bit of a reality check. Like I’m not quite ready to be up, so I’ll go back, regroup, same external money and then, and then run it again. So then I did it again and I kind of knew that the opponents of doing delivery work, but also having time to build the pipeline.

So I. Seven days doing the work and then no time generating future. And, you know, I said, it’s clients now what’s how much time do you spend a week marketing all your tapes then to wait marketing and getting new customers and many of them zero. And, uh, you know, it’s concerning, you know, if you don’t have an agency or someone else doing it for you, you to spend time allocated to building your pipeline, getting customers early on in a business and customers is one of the most important.

Management leadership, Lil that stuff will come as the take. It’s the goal, but draughty customers is one of my supportive things. So

Terry: if you’re an analyst and then you said, go and work at a marketing agency, let’s say just for argument’s sake, you’re on a hundred grand as analyst, but it was 60 grand to work in a marketing agency.

Ray: Yeah, you go by long game, but you can make that easier by just decreasing your lifestyle. So I’d like looky Cubs going down. They crazy lifestyle bite the bullet and just cop it, like is the long-term plan. I went to a job where I was getting a decent salary that I went down. It went nearly, went back up, but then went back down again and I’m like, man, I’m not going to work so hard for so little money.

And then eventually over time, my skills got better and now it’s like, I’m making multiples of what I ever would have made in a salary job, even if it was a good salary. And I get to spend all day in t-shirt and shorts in air-con on my computer, on the phone or whatever, and going into had like 12 coffees a day, like took ages to get there.

But it’s just crazy. Like even my old man, he doesn’t get it. He’s like, what’s going on? Like, what are you doing? And I’m like, this is my business that like up and he’s like, he doesn’t get it. I’m like, then I might make it multiples of what he’s salary. And he worked way harder than I ever did, like way harder.

And it’s like, this is the world. I think, to re kind of boil it sound like the world’s a ridiculous place and you can make money. Money. Like even these YouTube ones, like they’re filming videos in their garage, literally. And for a long time, like to them two or three years to build up to that or whatever, if somebody is I’m making extraordinary money after they get in the trough, doing something that they like, it’s a total privilege.

Being able to do stuff that you mostly Haysville do jobs. They get paid a lot and it sucks. There’s jobs that don’t pay much. And I saw this poll. Did you have to do something somewhat like, and get paid good money for it? Eventually like a lottery. That is awesome

Terry: to hear. And that last point is critical.

Like you say, it’s just, there’s so much available to us and the internet has exploded the number of opportunities in the ways that you can earn money assist. Are you willing to do the work and fail a bit? Because actually failing is the wider window. It’s

Ray: so worth it. Like it’s massively worth it. Like if you really want to do it, just go do it.

And for most people that relatively new, even if you’re not, y’all just have a crack. Like I was nervous when I made that decision and now, but to show my me back then what ended up happening and what’s probably gonna happen in the next two or three years, especially if it’s a no-brainer you just don’t have that guarantee, but you not gonna get a guarantee.

There’s nobody going to tuck you in at night and say, Hey, it’s going to work out.

Terry: The only way to fail is to quit now. That’s great. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I’ve been looking forward to having this chat with you. I love your style. It’s just so direct and straight down the line. So I hope our listeners enjoyed it.

If you do, if you are listening to this and you got a lot of value from it, and you’ve been thinking about taking that jump, I hope this has given you a bit of confidence. And if you feel like someone, you know, could benefit from this because they always talk about doing this, but they don’t do it. Share this episode with them and tell them about Ray’s YouTube channel as well.

What’s the YouTube. It’s

Ray: under my name, right? R I Y Corcoran, C O R C O R a N. Yep. But if you just go to follow me on Instagram and you get a link to it. It’s right. Cool. All right.  yep. Just following the outposts posts really infrequently, locally content. So.

Terry: And if you don’t follow

Ray: me, we’ll go cook it yet.

I’ll direct message you. If you don’t follow with me, I’ll find you the right message. You question you directly. You’re ready, comfortable. You’re listening with the headphones right now.

Terry: Thanks. You have a good rest of the day and then we’ll chat. Thanks. My pleasure. Good. I legend. I hope you enjoy this episode and thank you for listening.

……

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